Nightmare at 10,000 miles on TRD ORP Hybrid?

[CO/ZA]

I'm really sorry this happened to you.

However, these are the issues I was worried about with a hybrid. You're significantly increasing the systems that can fail. Two drivetrains, degradation, complex software, weight, complex cooling systems, etc etc. With a hybrid vehicle you get the worst of both worlds in terms of issues. All for what? To save a couple of bucks at the gas station?

I was so surprised when Toyota said they were making hybrid 4runners, even more so that the majority of people would actually be interested.

You're not entirely wrong; on one had the hybrid systems Toyota makes are extremely long lived and reliable.

However, if this were any other market we would be able to option the 2.8 1GD-FTV turbo diesel like they put in other comperable Toyota models around the world.

Reason we're stuck with the hybrid gimmicks is due to the tighter US/CAN emissions regulations for small vehicles.

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[HVLA]

I'm really sorry this happened to you.

However, these are the issues I was worried about with a hybrid. You're significantly increasing the systems that can fail. Two drivetrains, degradation, complex software, weight, complex cooling systems, etc etc. With a hybrid vehicle you get the worst of both worlds in terms of issues. All for what? To save a couple of bucks at the gas station?

I was so surprised when Toyota said they were making hybrid 4runners, even more so that the majority of people would actually be interested.

You realize Toyota has been building hybrid vehicles for 30 years right? This isnt a hybrid problem. It is a battery or a dumb dealer tech doing something wrong problem.

 

[fur_runner]

You're not entirely wrong; on one had the hybrid systems Toyota makes are extremely long lived and reliable.

However, if this were any other market we would be able to option the 2.8 1GD-FTV turbo diesel like they put in other comperable Toyota models around the world.

Reason we're stuck with the hybrid gimmicks is due to the tighter US/CAN emissions regulations for small vehicles.

You realize there are no emissions/CAFE (or crash) regulations on light trucks?

 

[CO/ZA]

You realize there are no emissions/CAFE (or crash) regulations on light trucks?

Don't worry, the EPA does provide rules on it.

https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...ule-multi-pollutant-emissions-standards-model

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2017/595363/IPOL_ATA(2017)595363_EN.pdf

The US EPA heavily weights emissions like NOx, PM, CO, etc. which does not favor small diesels. The medium duty segment, like F-350s, is regulated to a large degree and requires DEF system, ECU controls, etc. to minimise these.

The EU and RoW allows for small diesels because they rather look at CO2 fleet averages.

The USA and especially California are very strict with diesel emissions standards.

Hence why you're not driving a 2.8 GD6 diesel Toyota and instead having to deal with a hybrid petrol machine.

 

[mars001]

Chevy still sells small 3.0 diesel in their 1500 pickup trucks...

 

[CO/ZA]

Chevy still sells small 3.0 diesel in their 1500 pickup trucks...

Yes with a DEF system and all that 9 yards.

Some diesels get through, like the Isuzu ones GM uses or Mercedes Benz with their Sprinters.

 

[NotApplicable]

Don't worry, the EPA does provide rules on it.

https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...ule-multi-pollutant-emissions-standards-model

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2017/595363/IPOL_ATA(2017)595363_EN.pdf

The US EPA heavily weights emissions like NOx, PM, CO, etc. which does not favor small diesels. The medium duty segment, like F-350s, is regulated to a large degree and requires DEF system, ECU controls, etc. to minimise these.

The EU and RoW allows for small diesels because they rather look at CO2 fleet averages.

The USA and especially California are very strict with diesel emissions standards.

Hence why you're not driving a 2.8 GD6 diesel Toyota and instead having to deal with a hybrid petrol machine.

Why can we get duramax Tahoes? Are those exempt?

not that the lz0 inspires much confidence

 

[watchbuzz]

So the OP just had a dead (12v) battery right?

 

[xraytekca]

I'm really sorry this happened to you.

However, these are the issues I was worried about with a hybrid. You're significantly increasing the systems that can fail. Two drivetrains, degradation, complex software, weight, complex cooling systems, etc etc. With a hybrid vehicle you get the worst of both worlds in terms of issues. All for what? To save a couple of bucks at the gas station?

I was so surprised when Toyota said they were making hybrid 4runners, even more so that the majority of people would actually be interested.

My old lady was pushing me to get the hybrid. These are the exact reasons why I didn’t want it and got the gas version.

 

[odins_beer'd]

You realize Toyota has been building hybrid vehicles for 30 years right? This isnt a hybrid problem. It is a battery or a dumb dealer tech doing something wrong problem.

Yes, however I doubt many of their other vehicles are designed for offroad abuse. My point still stands, you increase your odds of failure with more components. That's just the reality. The odds are already great enough of facing a failure of sorts while off the beaten path, why increase that exposure is all.

 

[odins_beer'd]

I think a lot of people know that historically, Toyota hybrids are incredibly reliable because they've been in the game for so long. The whole "twice as many things to fail" thing just doesn't ring true for current- and prior-gen Priuses, RAV4 hybrids, Highlander hybrids, RX hybrids, NX hybrids, etc. etc. as these are demonstrably some of the most reliable vehicles ever produced.

But, the i-FORCE MAX hybrid setup is a completely different beast than the decades-old-and-many-times-refined Hybrid Synergy Drive-based setup. There have been teething issues. But it may well end up being as reliable as HSD eventually!

Besides a rogue Prius every now and then what of those vehicles are designed for offroad abuse? It does ring true because it is true, there are far more components in a hybrid system than one or the other. Build quality doesn't matter when you're comparing against other well built Toyotas.

Now it is 100% relative to the owner and their use case. If you only plan to have vehicle for 2-5 years and it never see's a trail than go for it. But for the crew out their that are beating these vehicles up for decades it really doesn't pencil.

 

[kekecarioca]

You're not entirely wrong; on one had the hybrid systems Toyota makes are extremely long lived and reliable.

However, if this were any other market we would be able to option the 2.8 1GD-FTV turbo diesel like they put in other comperable Toyota models around the world.

Reason we're stuck with the hybrid gimmicks is due to the tighter US/CAN emissions regulations for small vehicles.

Having that diesel 2.8 here would be a dream come true! It's been in production since 2015 and so far it's bulletproof/ powerful and quite efficient.

Sorry for derailing the thread.
Hope OP's issue is just a faulty battery.

 

[Nodak]

that would be cool to have the 2.8 diesel, but then again, and trust me, with all the usa regs on diesel emissions, you wouldnt want that engine in the usa.

 

[NotApplicable]

Besides a rogue Prius every now and then what of those vehicles are designed for offroad abuse? It does ring true because it is true, there are far more components in a hybrid system than one or the other. Build quality doesn't matter when you're comparing against other well built Toyotas.

Now it is 100% relative to the owner and their use case. If you only plan to have vehicle for 2-5 years and it never see's a trail than go for it. But for the crew out their that are beating these vehicles up for decades it really doesn't pencil.

By this same logic, taxi drivers and fleet owners should’ve never selected Toyota hybrids, and should’ve never expected Toyota hybrids to last longer than their traditional counterparts. And yet, look what happened.

Don’t get me wrong, the whole “more components equals more failures” thing sounds convincing and is a widely used argument. It’s just demonstrably untrue in some cases.

I think “reliability by simplicity” is over in modern automobiles, because it’s futile. Even the most barebones has multiples more systems and points of failure than vehicles of yore. Not that long ago someone would’ve been making the same argument you’re making about a turbo. Or a transfer case controlled by wire. Or EPS. Etc. etc. etc. I think, give the complexity of modern vehicles, reliability is intentionally engineered into the product, and this is something Toyota has proven it can do repeatedly.

That being said, I went with the gasser. I see 0 need whatsoever for more power, and the hybrid system doesn’t really improve the MPGs. So for me I simply don’t see the value prop. But you won’t see me fearmongering about the reliability of a Toyota hybrid unless there’s cold hard data to back it up, because the precedence they’ve set for themselves is the strongest evidence anyone has at this point.

 

[odins_beer'd]

By this same logic, taxi drivers and fleet owners should’ve never selected Toyota hybrids, and should’ve never expected Toyota hybrids to last longer than their traditional counterparts. And yet, look what happened.

Don’t get me wrong, the whole “more components equals more failures” thing sounds convincing and is a widely used argument. It’s just demonstrably untrue in some cases.

I think “reliability by simplicity” is over in modern automobiles, because it’s futile. Even the most barebones has multiples more systems and points of failure than vehicles of yore. Not that long ago someone would’ve been making the same argument you’re making about a turbo. Or a transfer case controlled by wire. Or EPS. Etc. etc. etc. I think, give the complexity of modern vehicles, reliability is intentionally engineered into the product, and this is something Toyota has proven it can do repeatedly.

That being said, I went with the gasser. I see 0 need whatsoever for more power, and the hybrid system doesn’t really improve the MPGs. So for me I simply don’t see the value prop. But you won’t see me fearmongering about the reliability of a Toyota hybrid unless there’s cold hard data to back it up, because the precedence they’ve set for themselves is the strongest evidence anyone has at this point.

Holy get a grip man, nobody is fearmongering Toyota's or at least certainly not me. If that was truly my intention why would I own one? My point is that a hybrid vehicle no matter how you spin it is more mechanically complex than a gasser. There are more components. That is a fact and you can argue a wall if you'd like. I am not saying that they are doomed to fail and will 100% fail. I am saying you have increased the odds out of sheer volume with picking a hybrid.

The 4runner is typically designed as an offroad vehicle. For the people that are actually going to use it offroad, why would you increase the odds of failure when you're already engaging in risk seeking activities.

Toyota is a great brand and has proven reliability, I'd be a fool to argue that.

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