5W-30 for hot climates? 0W-20 for cold climates?

[drNick]

As I told you, your money, your car, your freedom to do whatever you want….

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[Gumpus]

This is beyond ridiculous. Manufacturers fuck up all day every day. They also have different priorities than their customers, and that shows all day every day. There has been a countless stream of examples from every company including the holy Toyota since the first car 100 years ago.

If it's stupid to blindly ignore manufacturers documentation and engineers, it's just as stupid to blindly worship them.

Not to mention, even if you want to blindly follow what the manufacturer says, in this case the manufacturer says like 4 different things at the same time. Which gospel is the actual gospel?
In the US, us 0-20, in anywhere else, same latitude and weather, same engine, same parts, same dimensions, same air, same gravity, same Earth, use 5-30.
Toyota care: first oil change at 10k.
Toyota computer and owners manual: first oil changeat 5k

And trying to claim that 0w20 is actually *better* at protecting and results in less wear is completely and utterly at odds with a mountain of evidense for all kinds of manufacturers. The best they have shown is that you can *get away* with it if everything else is just perfect, totally ideal lab conditions. In no way is it ever actually *better*. It's a compromise that you can get away with by dint of making the oil more and more exotic and expensive, and just changing the manual to say to change it 3x as often so it's always brand new. Same as adding the turbo. Sure, if everything is perfect and you change the oil every 18 minutes the turbo might last almost 1/2 as long as all those 300k 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gens.

There has even already been cases where the manufacturer had to update their docs to say to use thicker oil than they said initially because too many engines either failed totally or suffered too much wear too fast. Hello the huge GM recall still ongoing just for the most obvious example.
If it was so superior, why did going thicker fix it? Surely they should have gone from 0w20 to 0W8 to fix it?

Tho only reason anyone is using 0-anything is not because it's actually better, it's simply because they are squeezed and trying to improve fuel and pollution numbers any way they possibly can, and they sacrifice other numbers to make those numbers better.

You're making stuff up and you know it.

 

[SouthCoast]

Regarding the GM example, they also indicated it was a manufacturing defect and the switch to a thicker oil was essentially a bandaid, not a fix. It was “cheaper” to change the oil and give a warranty than it was to change thousands of engines…

My brother had this exact scenario occur. They changed the oil in his yukon denali and upped the warranty 150k. They also said they would replace the motor at the time of failure and stack another warranty.

 

[6thGen1419]

Watch the @CarCareNut video on the topic, which is precisely my point. It’s your car, your money and the freedom to do whatever you want with them.

Yes, I was convinced in this thread a couple of weeks ago to stick with 0w-20.

 

[CO/ZA]

0w-20 is filled in everything from Toyotas, to BMW, etc. as it gives 1-2% better fuel economy.

The US EPA then doesn't have to levy as severe a CAFE penalty on the manufacturer.

I will switch to 0w-30 ESP personally once my powertrain warranty is up.

That being said, you can find used oil analysis of 0w-20 used in BMW, VW/Audi, etc. and they read just fine for 10k intervals.

 

[DannyvanDelft]

Came looking for this. I ALWAYS go to a thicker weight oil after the initial break-in. It started when I had a 2015 Subaru STI that had the notorious "Subaru tick" coming from the engine. Horrible valve train noise. I believe the standard oil was 5W-30. Switched to 5W-40, gone.
my 2021 Supra ran like a dream on 5W-30 Liquimoly, even though 0W-20 is recommended. I will not run that pisswater in any turbo engine if possible. It has nowhere to shear too, and you get a lot of blowby. It's EPA crap to squeeze another MPG out of it. Next came the GR Corolla. Same thing. 300 horsepower from a 1.6 liter 3 cylinder turbo. 0W-20. Not a chance. Break-in done, Liquimoly 5W-30.

I think you can guess what the 4runner is going to get at her first oil change.

 

[fabtonic]

I'm on my third oil change now at 5,000 miles. The truck has been running beautifully on 5W-30. I might switch to 0W-30 at 20k miles, and I am not worried about warranty. Prior to this car I had a 5.0 Mustang which required 5W-20. I ran 5W-30 and sometimes 10W-30 and the engine sounded and performed smoother (also had a ticking problem).

Came looking for this. I ALWAYS go to a thicker weight oil after the initial break-in. It started when I had a 2015 Subaru STI that had the notorious "Subaru tick" coming from the engine. Horrible valve train noise. I believe the standard oil was 5W-30. Switched to 5W-40, gone.
my 2021 Supra ran like a dream on 5W-30 Liquimoly, even though 0W-20 is recommended. I will not run that pisswater in any turbo engine if possible. It has nowhere to shear too, and you get a lot of blowby. It's EPA crap to squeeze another MPG out of it. Next came the GR Corolla. Same thing. 300 horsepower from a 1.6 liter 3 cylinder turbo. 0W-20. Not a chance. Break-in done, Liquimoly 5W-30.

I think you can guess what the 4runner is going to get at her first oil change.

 

[Gumpus]

I can't think of one reason to run 5/30. If you believe you need the higher film strength of 30 weight then why not run 0/30 so your engine doesn't have to wait 40% longer for lubrication on a cold start.

Film strength is the one and only consideration that favors thicker oil but how much benefit do you expect on parts lubricated by hydrodynamic lubrication where the parts never touch.

I can think of lots of reasons to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. The vehicle is designed and tested around the recommended oil; in terms of durability it is the only proven oil weight. At the blue oval the testing includes very hot and very cold weather and trailer towing up Davis Dam. The bearing clearances are chosen based partly on the oil.The 2.4 pistons are cooked by oil jets...anyone think thicker oil is helpful? The variable valve timing mechanism depends on engine oil to operate and this is one area where you can fund specific cautions about using thicker oil. Your cylinder walls are lubricated by splash lubrication...do we think thicker oil splashes around better? You can find lots of folks saying that 0/20 is purely for EPA fuel economy but that's an emotional statement. 0/20 reduces engine friction by 12% vs 5/30. That is a HUGE theoretical benefit for durability....every time a cylinder fires the forces on many components are 12% lower.

If you think the benefits are worth the risks go for it. The topic comes up on every car forum...but the opinions and recommendations are all over the map. OMG turbos! OMG hybrid! OMG direct injection! OMG EPA conspiracy! All emotional arguments. I'm not into YouTube videos and I imagine there must be some good info but the few I've watched on this subject sure seem to try to sensationalize any potential worry in the interest of gaining followers. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything, I'm just commenting on the subject.

 

[The_Dark_Knight_Forever]

I can't think of one reason to run 5/30. If you believe you need the higher film strength of 30 weight then why not run 0/30 so your engine doesn't have to wait 40% longer for lubrication on a cold start.

Film strength is the one and only consideration that favors thicker oil but how much benefit do you expect on parts lubricated by hydrodynamic lubrication where the parts never touch.

I can think of lots of reasons to follow the manufacturer's recommendation. The vehicle is designed and tested around the recommended oil; in terms of durability it is the only proven oil weight. At the blue oval the testing includes very hot and very cold weather and trailer towing up Davis Dam. The bearing clearances are chosen based partly on the oil.The 2.4 pistons are cooked by oil jets...anyone think thicker oil is helpful? The variable valve timing mechanism depends on engine oil to operate and this is one area where you can fund specific cautions about using thicker oil. Your cylinder walls are lubricated by splash lubrication...do we think thicker oil splashes around better? You can find lots of folks saying that 0/20 is purely for EPA fuel economy but that's an emotional statement. 0/20 reduces engine friction by 12% vs 5/30. That is a HUGE theoretical benefit for durability....every time a cylinder fires the forces on many components are 12% lower.

If you think the benefits are worth the risks go for it. The topic comes up on every car forum...but the opinions and recommendations are all over the map. OMG turbos! OMG hybrid! OMG direct injection! OMG EPA conspiracy! All emotional arguments. I'm not into YouTube videos and I imagine there must be some good info but the few I've watched on this subject sure seem to try to sensationalize any potential worry in the interest of gaining followers. I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything, I'm just commenting on the subject.

Questioning things is good to do but making “emotional” statements based on anecdotal evidence at best is spreading false information & is the birth of conspiracy theories. I think that people have to eventually accept that automotive engineering, machining & technology evolves & advances which necessitates changes. I think old heads are staunchly clinging to an "if it ain't broke don't fix it” point of view and making unsupported statements without hard evidence but based on circumstantial, anecdotal claims & experiences. I seriously doubt that vast majority of people arguing against 0W-20 oil has even 25% of the knowledge & engineering experience as the appropriate Toyota people have. Now I do fully believe that Toyota's goal is to get the vehicle through the warranty period without major failures then after that you're on your own. Money is their bottom line as it is a business afterall. 10,000 miles oil change intervals is insane if you want your vehicle to last far beyond the warranty period without any problems. At the least, go by the Severe service intervals for maintenance...in the case of engine oil the 5,000 mile intervals. It doesn't hurt anything on the vehicle to do it earlier or more often. The cleaner the oil the less wear it'll have regardless of the weight...it's simple.

I've been going down the rabbit hole on this subject because I want to be driving my 4Runner 20 years from now. What I've personally decided, alot based on The Car Care Nut's (a Master Certified Toyota Technician) & The Motor Oil Geek's (an experienced & educated Tribologist) YouTube videos discussing the topic, is that I will be following Toyota's recommended oil weight of 0W-20 (though I'm using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum exclusively). I'll change the oil early & often during the break in period of what I believe is the first 10,000 miles. Eventually I'll settle on intervals of 3,500-4,000 miles simply because the turbos are merciless on oil. That's my take on the matter & those who disagree can maintain their vehicle however they choose to.

 

[NotApplicable]

Questioning things is good to do but making “emotional” statements based on anecdotal evidence at best is spreading false information & is the birth of conspiracy theories. I think that people have to eventually accept that automotive engineering, machining & technology evolves & advances which necessitates changes. I think old heads are staunchly clinging to an "if it ain't broke don't fix it” point of view and making unsupported statements without hard evidence but based on circumstantial, anecdotal claims & experiences. I seriously doubt that vast majority of people arguing against 0W-20 oil has even 25% of the knowledge & engineering experience as the appropriate Toyota people have. Now I do fully believe that Toyota's goal is to get the vehicle through the warranty period without major failures then after that you're on your own. Money is their bottom line as it is a business afterall. 10,000 miles oil change intervals is insane if you want your vehicle to last far beyond the warranty period without any problems. At the least, go by the Severe service intervals for maintenance...in the case of engine oil the 5,000 mile intervals. It doesn't hurt anything on the vehicle to do it earlier or more often. The cleaner the oil the less wear it'll have regardless of the weight...it's simple.

I've been going down the rabbit hole on this subject because I want to be driving my 4Runner 20 years from now. What I've personally decided, alot based on The Car Care Nut's (a Master Certified Toyota Technician) & The Motor Oil Geek's (an experienced & educated Tribologist) YouTube videos discussing the topic, is that I will be following Toyota's recommended oil weight of 0W-20 (though I'm using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum exclusively). I'll change the oil early & often during the break in period of what I believe is the first 10,000 miles. Eventually I'll settle on intervals of 3,500-4,000 miles simply because the turbos are merciless on oil. That's my take on the matter & those who disagree can maintain their vehicle however they choose to.

I will also be sticking with 0w20 but intervals of 4-5k after break in. If you’re worried about shear, OCI is probably a more effective tool than 30 vs 20.

Even then, go by UOA results and not dogma/superstition.

 

[SouthCoast]

I will also be sticking with 0w20 but intervals of 4-5k after break in. If you’re worried about shear, OCI is probably a more effective tool than 30 vs 20.

Which is why I’m doing 3K OCI after break-in. Because why not!

 

[AdFour]

We desperately need some tests proving the thicker oil is better for the engine that requires 0w-20, eg cooler oil temps (thicker oil btw will run hotter) and less wear particles. So far I haven't seen anything of that nature. Its just a dart against the wall.

"I used thicker oil and nothing seemed to break therefore its good."
The best bet is to run the recommended oil and do more frequent changes. The clearances were designed for 0w-20. Generally tighter bearing clearances require lower viscosity for hydrodynamic lubrication.

 

[DannyvanDelft]

We desperately need some tests proving the thicker oil is better for the engine that requires 0w-20, eg cooler oil temps (thicker oil btw will run hotter) and less wear particles. So far I haven't seen anything of that nature. Its just a dart against the wall.

"I used thicker oil and nothing seemed to break therefore its good."
The best bet is to run the recommended oil and do more frequent changes. The clearances were designed for 0w-20. Generally tighter bearing clearances require lower viscosity for hydrodynamic lubrication.

Like was said earlier, the engines run 5W-30 elsewhere in the world, so it was designed for that. The only reason to go to a thinner oil is for EPA appeasement. Not reliability.

This conversation has happened on every forum on every engine that uses 0w-20 lol. Even as far back as when I had my Mazda RX-8's. They recommended 5w-20 here in the USA while the rest of the world uses 5W-30 so this conversation is at least 23 years old. But in short, I've never seen an engine fail because of thicker oil.

 

[The_Dark_Knight_Forever]

Just because you haven't seen it does not

Like was said earlier, the engines run 5W-30 elsewhere in the world, so it was designed for that. The only reason to go to a thinner oil is for EPA appeasement. Not reliability.

This conversation has happened on every forum on every engine that uses 0w-20 lol. Even as far back as when I had my Mazda RX-8's. They recommended 5w-20 here in the USA while the rest of the world uses 5W-30 so this conversation is at least 23 years old. But in short, I've never seen an engine fail because of thicker oil.

Just because you've not ever seen an engine fail because of thicker oil doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Just sayin'.
If you did ever see it how many engines would you have to see fail with thicker oil for you to believe that the cause is that thicker oil was used in the engines not designed for it?

 

[DannyvanDelft]

Just because you haven't seen it does not

Just because you've not ever seen an engine fail because of thicker oil doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Just sayin'.
If you did ever see it how many engines would you have to see fail with thicker oil for you to believe that the cause is that thicker oil was used in the engines not designed for it?

If 5W-30 is used as the standard oil in other parts of the world, it obviously was designed for it.

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