Some odd and interesting hybrid observations

[Dario]

I'm curious how far the rest of you have driven in electric only mode. I was downtown last week in traffic. I went at least a couple of miles without the engine staring. It was flat, stop-and-go traffic that never got over ~15 mph.

I can't figure out what triggers the engine to start. If I have to go uphill at all it seems to start it. Also pushing the gas more than just slightly will start it. But sometimes it seems to be more forgiving than others. Maybe this is related to battery charge.

Lastly, have any of you noticed that the battery gauge does not seem accurate? I was driving downhill for about 5 miles the other day. It was all braking down the hill. When I got to the bottom I had 8 bars of battery. Right after some electric motor was used for ~1 block it was down to 5 bars, then quickly dropped to 4. None of this seems right. I don't think it could have charged from 4 bars that quickly, nor could it have gotten depleted that quickly.

Maybe it's just the low battery capacity? It occurs to me that it would have been better to us some type of lithium battery rather than NiCds.

I think the hybrid we're going to want will have more battery capacity, maybe be able to drive electric only for 20-30 miles, and get rid of that battery brick in the cargo area.

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[Dead Horse]

The battery isn't for efficiency, it's for power/torque. Toyota has always said this. Its goal isn't to save gas on your commute.

The battery is (relatively) tiny. That's how it charges/depletes so fast.

Also, the battery is NiMH...not NiCd or Li-ion. Safer, more durable, and longer lasting than lithium...It's Toyota, they like safe and long lasting.

 

[Dario]

The battery isn't for efficiency, it's for power/torque. Toyota has always said this. Its goal isn't to save gas on your commute.

I am aware that the battery is not for efficiency.

Also, the battery is NiMH...

Thanks for the correction.

Li-ion batteries last more than long enough and are more than safe enough. Many (most?) Toyota hybrids are using Li-ion, and certainly the plug-ins are.

With such a small battery pack, Li-ion would have been a far better choice, imo. With 2-3x the energy density the brick in the back could be much smaller, or we could get more energy storage.

The only reason I can see they would not have used Li-ion is cost.

 

[Nodak]

as long as you do a slow steady gas pedal application you can make it so it doesnt engage the gas engine.

all you really have to be mindful of is to keep the HV gauge under the 2nd bar, once it get over that or close to it, the gas engine will start up.

normally.

i have had the hv bar go 3/4 or close to full going up hill and WoT mode.

 

[4funner]

I'm curious how far the rest of you have driven in electric only mode. I was downtown last week in traffic. I went at least a couple of miles without the engine staring. It was flat, stop-and-go traffic that never got over ~15 mph.

I can't figure out what triggers the engine to start. If I have to go uphill at all it seems to start it. Also pushing the gas more than just slightly will start it. But sometimes it seems to be more forgiving than others. Maybe this is related to battery charge.

Lastly, have any of you noticed that the battery gauge does not seem accurate? I was driving downhill for about 5 miles the other day. It was all braking down the hill. When I got to the bottom I had 8 bars of battery. Right after some electric motor was used for ~1 block it was down to 5 bars, then quickly dropped to 4. None of this seems right. I don't think it could have charged from 4 bars that quickly, nor could it have gotten depleted that quickly.

Maybe it's just the low battery capacity? It occurs to me that it would have been better to us some type of lithium battery rather than NiCds.

I think the hybrid we're going to want will have more battery capacity, maybe be able to drive electric only for 20-30 miles, and get rid of that battery brick in the cargo area.

I agree with your observations. All these things drove me so crazy I sold my hybrid and I am buying a gas 4runner. I dont understand the logic controlling the hybrid system. In my prius I understand exactly how it works. When I take my foot off the gas it switches to electric, and if I am just cruising it switches to electric. On the hybrid 4runner on my 30 minute mixed commute to work sometimes the hybrid motor would only kick on 2-3 times per drive. Just carrying around 600 lbs of electric stuff for no reason is the way I looked at it. I know the torque is fun sometimes, but overall a half baked hybrid system in my OPINON. I know others disagree.

 

[Nodak]

its because you are used to how a prius work and not how the BoF version of the hybrid's work.

BoF hybrid dont have a regen mode vs the normal toyota hybrid's that have a regen mode.

BoF are for power not mpg, regular hybrids are for mpg not power. you can have one or the other not both (that is the way toyota's eco system works for hybrids)




toyota BoF hybrid system eplained :





toyota regular hybrid system explained :

 

[HVLA]

I agree with your observations. All these things drove me so crazy I sold my hybrid and I am buying a gas 4runner. I dont understand the logic controlling the hybrid system. In my prius I understand exactly how it works. When I take my foot off the gas it switches to electric, and if I am just cruising it switches to electric. On the hybrid 4runner on my 30 minute mixed commute to work sometimes the hybrid motor would only kick on 2-3 times per drive. Just carrying around 600 lbs of electric stuff for no reason is the way I looked at it. I know the torque is fun sometimes, but overall a half baked hybrid system in my OPINON. I know others disagree.

Half baked?

This site. I swear to god.

 

[4funner]

Half baked?

This site. I swear to god.

I like 4runners and toyotas, thats why I am on this site However their BOF hybrids have a pattern of being half baked.

The reasons I call it half baked after driving one for 4000 miles:

They just slap a battery in the cargo area as an afterthought. Look at the sequoia lol. In the 4runner they could have put a 1-2 thick battery with better engineering. The battery is physically not that large under the plastic cover.

Doesn't even get close to advertised mpg (18-19, vs 23-24)

When I mash the pedal to pass on the highway most of time it is not impressive. The clutches in the electric motor have to figure out what to do. It's just as bad as turbo lag.

75 percent of the time pulling away from a stop it does not engage the electric motor because I drive with a light foot. If I mash it does.

The battery spends most of its life at 6 or bars. Carrying around a lot of unused electrons.

Eco mode gets worse mpg than normal.

gas engine wont turn off when 4wd is engaged.

My guess is the iforce max is more fun for people with a heavy foot or towing. I am a prius driver so that probably tells you somthing about my driving haha.

 

[127.0.0.1]

NiMH is chosen on the 4runner because it integrates into the typical use of the 4runner

The 4Runner is a truck-based SUV built for tough, varied environments. NiMH batteries perform reliably down to -30°C to -40°C, whereas lithium-ion batteries can degrade significantly or even fail in extreme cold. For an off-road-capable vehicle used in diverse climates, this matters a lot. If it had Lithium it would need additional heat pump and exhaust recirculation circuits driving up cost ands reducing interior space further. NiMH doesn't require the complex thermal management and cell-balancing systems that lithium-ion needs, reducing potential failure points.

NiMH also handle Toyota's constant shallow charge/discharge cycling very well, which is exactly how a non-plug-in hybrid uses its battery.

In a non-plug-in hybrid like the 4Runner, the battery is just an energy buffer — not the primary power source. It constantly gets recharged via regenerative braking and the engine. Because of this, the lower energy density of NiMH is simply not a drawback. You don't need a huge, dense battery pack like you do in a BEV or PHEV.

 

[HVLA]

I like 4runners and toyotas, thats why I am on this site However their BOF hybrids have a pattern of being half baked.

The reasons I call it half baked after driving one for 4000 miles:

They just slap a battery in the cargo area as an afterthought. Look at the sequoia lol. In the 4runner they could have put a 1-2 thick battery with better engineering. The battery is physically not that large under the plastic cover.

Doesn't even get close to advertised mpg (18-19, vs 23-24)

When I mash the pedal to pass on the highway most of time it is not impressive. The clutches in the electric motor have to figure out what to do. It's just as bad as turbo lag.

75 percent of the time pulling away from a stop it does not engage the electric motor because I drive with a light foot. If I mash it does.

The battery spends most of its life at 6 or bars. Carrying around a lot of unused electrons.

Eco mode gets worse mpg than normal.

gas engine wont turn off when 4wd is engaged.

My guess is the iforce max is more fun for people with a heavy foot or towing. I am a prius driver so that probably tells you somthing about my driving haha.

It isnt half baked. It serves an entirely different purpose than the hybrids used for mpg. They knew exactly what they were doing and did it very well. It is for power and increases that power quite a bit. Even more so in the Tundra.

 

[spyder40]

I bought my hybrid for towing and it works like a champ. Night and day over my 21/18/04 V6. I am solidly in the low 20's every day driving

 

[willie2323]

Really good input here on both the batteries and the torque scheme for the 4Runner...I will say, as was said above, I have also experienced the lag when I need the power immediately on the highway, disconcerting.
Coming back from Cali to Az on hwy 10 there was a group of us that were in a hurry and one thing I love about the adaptive cruise control is it is not limited to 80 mph like my past Rav4 was....anyway we were cruising at 90-94 mph for a good 30 minutes and this baby performed flawlessly.
cheers,
willie

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