Some odd and interesting hybrid observations

[Dario]

One more odd experience today: I got into my neighborhood and the engine shut off. I drove about 3 blocks on electric only and pulled into my garage. I put the car in park but did not turn if off. I had not heat or a/c going. I sat there for a minute or two checking my phone and the engine started. Just... why?

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[HVLA]

One more odd experience today: I got into my neighborhood and the engine shut off. I drove about 3 blocks on electric only and pulled into my garage. I put the car in park but did not turn if off. I had not heat or a/c going. I sat there for a minute or two checking my phone and the engine started. Just... why?

Because you didnt turn it off.....

 

[Dario]

Because you didnt turn it off.....

I guess I wasn't clear, or maybe one of us is missing something. It could be me.

I drive 3 blocks. No engine. I park in the garage. After a minute or 2 the engine starts. Why?

1. I do this frequently. I never turn the car off until I'm getting out (for some reason). I've sat there for much longer and the car never starts. Why would it when it's just sitting?

2. If I was at 1 bar (or maybe 2) I could maybe see it starting. But I wasn't.

3. I'm not getting why you think it's normal for the engine to start when the car drove several blocks home and is now just sitting there. Why would it need to start?

The only answer that seems even a little reasonable to me is that it was accumulating too much heat and needed to circulate the fluids.

 

[HVLA]

Charging the battery, keeping the engine at operaring temp, system checks, etc. The real question here is why you would think the vehicle wouldnt start the engine while you never turned the vehicle off. If it never did then why would you even need to ever turn the vehicle off?

 

[Dario]

Really good input here on both the batteries and the torque scheme for the 4Runner...I will say, as was said above, I have also experienced the lag when I need the power immediately on the highway, disconcerting.
Coming back from Cali to Az on hwy 10 there was a group of us that were in a hurry and one thing I love about the adaptive cruise control is it is not limited to 80 mph like my past Rav4 was....anyway we were cruising at 90-94 mph for a good 30 minutes and this baby performed flawlessly.
cheers,
willie

Same here. I needed to pass somebody the other day. The lag was very noticeable. Maybe they can fix that with an software update?

Does anybody know if the lag is unique to the hybrid, or does it also occur on the gas only engines?

 

[4funner]

Same here. I needed to pass somebody the other day. The lag was very noticeable. Maybe they can fix that with an software update?

Does anybody know if the lag is unique to the hybrid, or does it also occur on the gas only engines?

The non hybrid has some turbo lag, but no it does not have the same dead pedal feeling when trying to pass on the highway. My iforce max felt like the CVT on my prius sometimes when I would step on the pedal to pass. My new iforce does not feel that way.

My guess is it is protecting the clutches between the electric motor and the gas motor.

 

[Dario]

its because you are used to how a prius work and not how the BoF version of the hybrid's work.

BoF hybrid dont have a regen mode vs the normal toyota hybrid's that have a regen mode.

BoF are for power not mpg, regular hybrids are for mpg not power. you can have one or the other not both (that is the way toyota's eco system works for hybrids)




toyota BoF hybrid system eplained :





toyota regular hybrid system explained :

I finally watched these videos. They are excellent. The first one is great for us 4Runner hybrid owners. At 9:52 this first video clearly states that the 4th mode of operation is regeneration. Not sure why you think there is no regen.

I live in an area with a lot of hills. I very frequently have a drive that has a 2+ mile downhill section. It's all brakes on that downhill. After driving that, I always have 2-3 more bars on my charge meter. I would think that could only happen if there is regen braking.

 

[Woodsmith]

I agree with your observations. All these things drove me so crazy I sold my hybrid and I am buying a gas 4runner. I dont understand the logic controlling the hybrid system. In my prius I understand exactly how it works. When I take my foot off the gas it switches to electric, and if I am just cruising it switches to electric. On the hybrid 4runner on my 30 minute mixed commute to work sometimes the hybrid motor would only kick on 2-3 times per drive. Just carrying around 600 lbs of electric stuff for no reason is the way I looked at it. I know the torque is fun sometimes, but overall a half baked hybrid system in my OPINON. I know others disagree.

. I guess you answered your own question. "I don't understand the logic controlling the hybrid system." We spend a lot of time on and off road pulling a small Lance travel trailer. My '26 iForceMax Hybrid easily cruises up hills and accelerates much quicker than my 5th gen 4R. I feel it's how you use the 4R that determines which model you purchase. Bashing a really big improvement in performance is simply your opinion.

 

[Nodak]

I finally watched these videos. They are excellent. The first one is great for us 4Runner hybrid owners. At 9:52 this first video clearly states that the 4th mode of operation is regeneration. Not sure why you think there is no regen.

I live in an area with a lot of hills. I very frequently have a drive that has a 2+ mile downhill section. It's all brakes on that downhill. After driving that, I always have 2-3 more bars on my charge meter. I would think that could only happen if there is regen braking.

but you do understand that the braking in a non BoF vehicle is just using MG1/2 to brake instead of using actual brake pads.

since the BoF vehicles electric motor is sandwiched between the engine and the trans, you really cant brake that part of the hybrid system unless you are specifically talking about engine braking.

and depending on how you are coasting down a hill, most of the time mine will just shut off the engine and switch to battery mode while in "D"

 

[Dario]

but you do understand that the braking in a non BoF vehicle is just using MG1/2 to brake instead of using actual brake pads.

After watching both videos. I don't see how the HSD hybrid system is relevant to this discussion. It's not what we have in hybrid 4Runners.

since the BoF vehicles electric motor is sandwiched between the engine and the trans, you really cant brake that part of the hybrid system unless you are specifically talking about engine braking.

This sounds like an opinion to me, not a fact. Even it's an opinion, I can't understand your reasoning.

Let's consider a non-hybrid 4Runner for a moment. With engine braking, the engine provides resistance to the transmission. The engine slows down the wheels. Would you agree with this?

In the hybrid 4Runner, the motor is ahead of the transmission. If the motor applies resistance, it will similarly slow down the wheels, right? The transmission doesn't care where the resistance come from - it just sees resistance. I assume the 4Runner was a way to electronically detect brake pressure. Fair? If so, why could the 4Runner not simply apply more load to the motor to get more resistance, which equals more braking?

My lay person's understanding of the 4Runner hybrid system is that it could (and should) be able to have the electric motor do regen braking similarly to how and engine does.

Here is how I reached the conclusion that there is regenerative braking:

1. Toyota claims there is regenerative braking.​

2. The video posted above states that there is regenerative braking and (sort of) explain it.​

3. Given my understanding from #2 above, I can logically see how it could work. This is just my opinion, but it's based on some knowledge.​

4. My limited experience (2000 miles) shows that there is regenerative braking. If not, how and why would I have more battery charge after using the brakes all the way down a 2 mile hill?​

I could be wrong about regenerative braking in the 4Runner hybrid, but so far I'm not seeing. I am more than willing to learn an be proven wrong. But I'm see a lot of evidence that there is regenerative braking an no evidence that there is not.

 

[mfoga]

I just watched the 4runner video and it i felt it was fairly clear how it regenerating. At 9:50 it discusses it. Basically if you are coasting the wheels are still spinning and it is taking the movement of the turn the eclectic motor turning it into a generator. So while is regen from braking its regen by kind of engine breaking. It seems to me you can feel when its switches to generator mode and you can feel the extra resistance kick in when coasting. I have never watched the battery to see if that shows that but based on the video that is what is happening.

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