Does the iForce Max Hybrid system change from engine to battery less often during specific weather or feature conditions?

[subsector2239]

I took my OFP Hybrid in for service not too long ago. First service at 8000km and I am noticing that the hybrid system doesn't kick on as often as it used to when I was driving around in the summer time. Normally the battery would kick on at a stop light, or while in drivethru's, but it seems like the engine is running a lot longer without going into battery. Even when approaching stop signs or stop lights, the regenerative braking usually puts the vehicle into hybrid battery mode when slowing down, and you can hear the whining of the charge when slowing down. It rarely does this anymore.

Does this happen with colder weather, ie under 10C? I know if features like AC or Heating can force the car engine to kick back on to charge the battery, but the battery indicator used to go up and down very frequently before, where now it stays charged around 80% with minimal switch over. I tried turning things off (heat, fans, etc) to test, but am not seeing any change or results when doing so.

I know there are a bunch of variables to dictate whether the system comes on or not. The amount of throttle given, the speed, the length of cruising the vehicle, during regenerative braking etc. I am just 100% sure the hybrid system is coming on less frequently now, and not sure if it was a coincidence due to the service I had from dealership (Service Level 1) at 8k.

Is this something I should approach the dealership with this info? Could they have programmed it this way or tuned it in a way that would affect the frequency of it kicking in?

In the manual (Page 70) states:

Conditions in which the gasoline engine may not stop

- When the “TOW HAUL” switch is on
- When the “MTS” switch is on
- Vehicles with part-time 4WD: When the front-wheel drive control switch is in “4H” or “4L”
- When the front-wheel drive control switch is in “4H” or “4L”
- Vehicles with full-time 4WD: When the front-wheel drive control switch is in “H4L” or “L4L”
- When braking (regenerative braking)
- When the hood is opened during "READY” indicator is illuminated
- When repeatedly accelerating/decelerating rapidly
- When repeatedly operating the hybrid system for a long time
- When driving down a long slope

I'm still under the impression that the system is not switching as much as it used to.

Would love to know if you've experienced this or not.

Thanks.

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[Nodak]

you are missing some other important requirements, the only one i remember is the extreme low temps is missing -31F (which i have to deal with in ND)

and the dealer will have nothing to tell you about the MG1 starting, or being used or whatever.

the ecu will determine when the electric motor will be used. its outside of a dealer's area to modify it.

 

[subsector2239]

you are missing some other important requirements, the only one i remember is the extreme low temps is missing -31F (which i have to deal with in ND)

and the dealer will have nothing to tell you about the MG1 starting, or being used or whatever.

the ecu will determine when the electric motor will be used. its outside of a dealer's area to modify it.

Thanks for response. Yea it probably won’t get that cold where I am. At most maybe -20C.

Alright, I guess I’ll just live with it and see what happens.

 

[Nodak]

Thanks for response. Yea it probably won’t get that cold where I am. At most maybe -20C.

Alright, I guess I’ll just live with it and see what happens.

vehicle metal hydride batteries are used differently than say a prius battery pack

have to take into account your battery gauge is from 0-100% but technically its only showing 40% to 80% percent actual charge represented as 0-100%.

it keeps some in reserve to ensure you can start the vehicle and also maintain long term condition of the cells (they dont have the same issues as say cellphone batteries with a memory effect).

the ideal storage charge is usually 50% but a range of 40-60% is typical

they also dont like being charged to 100% or discharged to 0% all the time.

also MH batteries will naturally discharge between 10-15% per month which will be an issue for those that go on long term trips or deployments.

and using a trickle charger is not advised since you need to follow the rule of over charging (complete discharge is worse long term wise than over charging, but you can ruin a battery pack constantly over charging)

forgot to add, extreme heat is an issue also.

high temperatures accelerate all chemical processes, including degradation.

but you have to take all this with a grain of salt. you do get a 10yr 150k battery warranty so i am guessing the degradation will be gradual.

 

[MikeD]

... I know if features like AC or Heating can force the car engine to kick back on to charge the battery, but the battery indicator used to go up and down very frequently before, where now it stays charged around 80% with minimal switch over. I tried turning things off (heat, fans, etc) to test, but am not seeing any change or results when doing so.
...

Sub: I've paid a lot of attention to the battery level and when the traction motor engages - even learned some new things this weekend that I'll mention below (but don't really answer your question).
But first, my main observation: The hybrid battery meter is 8 bars. My experience is that it shows 3 bars most (just over 50%) of the time. 4 bars a lot (35%+). 5 bars some (10%). 6 bars maybe 5%. 7 or 8 only when there has been some condition pushing it to charge (engine braking, regenerative braking, etc.)
SO.... seeing "80%" (which I take is 6 or 7 bars) all the time is very inconsistent with my experience and I wonder if something is wrong that is preventing the engine shutdown/traction motor engagement. I accidently had the vehicle in 4HI for ~100 highway miles (after some off-roading) and wondered why the engine never shut off an expected times (downhill coasting). I did not notice 4HI until backing out of a parking space with wheels turned and feeling the obvious issue (D'oH). But it sounds like you have done the research and know all the factors preventing the engine shutoff and traction motor engagement so ... I'm guessing its a real issue that you should have checked out.

Some new observations: When in auto-cruise going downhill the 4runner will downshift to enhance engine braking and the battery will charge quickly. I had previously gone into "standard" mode and downshifted to get engine braking on long downhill - great way to prove the battery will go to 8 bars- but I hadn't previously realized that the 4runner will do this on its own. Also, when the battery is charged up the traction motor and the ICE will work together when needed - I had the battery boost at full power (blue meter all the way) for 30 seconds or so while accelerating slowly up a long hill at highway speed yesterday - kept the instantaneous fuel economy gauge much higher than it would have otherwise been. (My son commented that he was surprised to see that when not towing).

FWIW, I am also right at 8K miles

 

[subsector2239]

Sub: I've paid a lot of attention to the battery level and when the traction motor engages - even learned some new things this weekend that I'll mention below (but don't really answer your question).
But first, my main observation: The hybrid battery meter is 8 bars. My experience is that it shows 3 bars most (just over 50%) of the time. 4 bars a lot (35%+). 5 bars some (10%). 6 bars maybe 5%. 7 or 8 only when there has been some condition pushing it to charge (engine braking, regenerative braking, etc.)
SO.... seeing "80%" (which I take is 6 or 7 bars) all the time is very inconsistent with my experience and I wonder if something is wrong that is preventing the engine shutdown/traction motor engagement. I accidently had the vehicle in 4HI for ~100 highway miles (after some off-roading) and wondered why the engine never shut off an expected times (downhill coasting). I did not notice 4HI until backing out of a parking space with wheels turned and feeling the obvious issue (D'oH). But it sounds like you have done the research and know all the factors preventing the engine shutoff and traction motor engagement so ... I'm guessing its a real issue that you should have checked out.

Some new observations: When in auto-cruise going downhill the 4runner will downshift to enhance engine braking and the battery will charge quickly. I had previously gone into "standard" mode and downshifted to get engine braking on long downhill - great way to prove the battery will go to 8 bars- but I hadn't previously realized that the 4runner will do this on its own. Also, when the battery is charged up the traction motor and the ICE will work together when needed - I had the battery boost at full power (blue meter all the way) for 30 seconds or so while accelerating slowly up a long hill at highway speed yesterday - kept the instantaneous fuel economy gauge much higher than it would have otherwise been. (My son commented that he was surprised to see that when not towing).

FWIW, I am also right at 8K miles

Interesting info, thanks.

Well, I just called the dealership and they tried to dismiss my claim saying its operating within normal spec. I explained that I read the manual, and understand when the hybrid system goes on and off, they tried to tell me it was weather related as soon as I mentioned, but we are talking 10 degrees C, not -20C. I tried to explain to them that the battery rarely drops below the 80%ish mark. After a 25 min drive, the hybrid would kick in maybe 3-4 times, where in the summer it was going on and off many times, and I'd often get down to 2-3 bars and then charge back up to 6 or 7. I hate knowing there's been a chance but not being able to communicate this to the service department, it's so frustrating.

 

[MikeD]

FWIW I've only noticed the battery level at 2 bars once and then immediately it was back up to 3. Virtually never.
Good luck finding the real issue - maybe you can find a toyota tech who is curious about the iForce MAX operation and wants to do some diagnostics. But the algorithms inside the computer are a bit of a mystery - we can only offer specific experience to infer the operation. (Heck, I keep trying to figure out the DTE calculation without luck, for example).
Best of luck. Please update if you learn anything

 

[Sonog]

My sense is this is a normal condition. I have also noticed quite a bit of variability when the engine turns off vs stays on. I suspect it’s managed by a computer and it’s running at spec. I agree that it’s a bit puzzling for those of us who like predictability. I’m choosing to assume it’s normal however. I doubt the dealer would be of much use in this case unless it was showing error codes. If it’s reassuring to you, I’ve noticed same as you. Drive it and enjoy.

 

[Nodak]

from what i have seen

1. the electric blue bar gauge up to 1/2 will only use the battery (80-90% of the time this will apply)
so if you feather the gas pedal to keep the electric guage below 1/2 i can maintain speed on electric only, but it is short lived, tops 1 min)


2. i have notice the engine down shifting when braking to a stop, i can see the tach blip
3. up hills will engage the electric motor
4. on long down hills the engine will shut off, but not always (i have a hill i go down every day that is about .2 to .3 miles long and about 5% grade)
5. as it has gotten colder here in ND, the engine shut off happens less often ( we are hitting 30F in the mornings right now with 50F during the day)

 

[subsector2239]

FWIW I've only noticed the battery level at 2 bars once and then immediately it was back up to 3. Virtually never.
Good luck finding the real issue - maybe you can find a toyota tech who is curious about the iForce MAX operation and wants to do some diagnostics. But the algorithms inside the computer are a bit of a mystery - we can only offer specific experience to infer the operation. (Heck, I keep trying to figure out the DTE calculation without luck, for example).
Best of luck. Please update if you learn anything

Thank you.

 

[subsector2239]

My sense is this is a normal condition. I have also noticed quite a bit of variability when the engine turns off vs stays on. I suspect it’s managed by a computer and it’s running at spec. I agree that it’s a bit puzzling for those of us who like predictability. I’m choosing to assume it’s normal however. I doubt the dealer would be of much use in this case unless it was showing error codes. If it’s reassuring to you, I’ve noticed same as you. Drive it and enjoy.

Yea, I like to know what is going on - first year of owning a hybrid of this type, so it's definitely puzzling. Thanks for the response.

 

[subsector2239]

from what i have seen

1. the electric blue bar gauge up to 1/2 will only use the battery (80-90% of the time this will apply)
so if you feather the gas pedal to keep the electric guage below 1/2 i can maintain speed on electric only, but it is short lived, tops 1 min)


2. i have notice the engine down shifting when braking to a stop, i can see the tach blip
3. up hills will engage the electric motor
4. on long down hills the engine will shut off, but not always (i have a hill i go down every day that is about .2 to .3 miles long and about 5% grade)
5. as it has gotten colder here in ND, the engine shut off happens less often ( we are hitting 30F in the mornings right now with 50F during the day)

Interesting, thanks for the insight. I'm going to keep monitoring it as the temps drop to see if anything changes.

 

[mjssss]

I’m curious… any notable differences in Eco?

 

[subsector2239]

I’m curious… any notable differences in Eco?

I haven't done testing in Eco, but I will try and report back the next time I'm out and about.

 

[elecfuyu]

Engine takes longer to get to working tempurature during colder weather.
My MPG dropped a bit due to cold engine in the morning.
I believe your 12V battery takes charge from gas engine as well, it also is effected with lower tempruture. If it's low, it will need constant top ups from gas engine

Whatever you are describing, sounds normal with temperuture change.

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